daredevil muffin-y genius ([info]monanotlisa) wrote,
@ 2007-01-28 19:37:00
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Current music:Pansy Division - Femme Fatale
Entry tags:french, grr, oops, psa, rl, tea

the secrets of the night
Before my late-night rendez-vous with [info]auburnnothenna, the friend I mentioned did pay me a visit. No movie-going, though; we stayed in my apartment and chatted and drank our body weight in tea. I know, I know, not even alcohol -- I was sick(ish), she was by car, and both of us are clearly getting old.

*dropping the n-th wet teabag into the bin*
Mona: *ponder* Hey, all in one go: When I'll bring you to the door, I'll take out the trash, too.
Ani: ?!

Come to think of it, "taking out the trash" will never sound the same to me after watching a season of Dexter.

*

Listening to this otherwise rather fabulous song, something that has been bothering me for ages now: The French word "femme" is not pronounced [fem]. It's pronounced [fam] with a short "ah.". (Usage of the term "femmeslash" as if it were the same as "femslash" makes me cranky for the same reason.)


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[info]dar_jeeling
2007-01-28 06:48 pm UTC (link)
Ahahaha! And here I was thinking: Omg, self, don't be such a snob, it's just the English pronunciation of femme. Deal with it! *wincewince*

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[info]monanotlisa
2007-01-28 06:57 pm UTC (link)
Yes, but. But. *frown* IT'S NOT AN ENGLISH WORD. If people want to say it like this, why don't they just use "fem" as a prefix?

Don't even get me started on the pronunciation of other foreign words in the English language...and yes, okay, I'm being, in Buffy terms, a stuck-up tight-ass with no sense of fun. But this is not the case of Streichholzschächtelchen -- it's obviously harder for some native speakers to pronounce certain words from other languages; God knows the rolling "r" is a huge problem for me in Spanish and Italian and other Romanic languages. But "femme fatale" is just no English term.

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[info]dar_jeeling
2007-01-28 07:11 pm UTC (link)
But "femme fatale" is just no English term.
I know! It was bothering me, too. That's...uh, actually why I looked it up even before you made this post. *shifty eyes*

But this is not the case of Streichholzschächtelchen
*laughs* It's just-- my mother told me about one of her first days in Germany once.
Random someone she knew: So. This is a Streichholz. These are Streichhölzer. This is a Streichholzschachtel.
My mother: Omgbai, I'm outta here.

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[info]thisficklemob
2007-01-28 07:47 pm UTC (link)
You know, I'm completely guilty of that, and I took French. I think it's because I've accepted that fem is the English pronunciation of the word. If I said fahm fatale, no one would know what I meant.

It's like how kah-rah-tee (karate) is how we say ka-rah-teh from Japanese. I still say kah-rah-teh sometimes, but I don't get upset when people don't. The one that drove me nuts is care-ee-oh-kee (karaoke). I was like, what? It's kah-rah-oh-keh! but that's a lost cause.

I comfort myself that at least we Americans pronounce ballet more or less the French way. (Don't get me started on the faux-French pronunciation of foyer.)

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[info]monanotlisa
2007-01-28 08:16 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, you're right, you wouldn't be understood, I'm afraid -- language isn't just a lovely abstract system but the code of our communication.

"It's like how kah-rah-tee (karate) is how we say ka-rah-teh from Japanese. I still say kah-rah-teh sometimes, but I don't get upset when people don't. The one that drove me nuts is care-ee-oh-kee (karaoke). I was like, what? It's kah-rah-oh-keh! but that's a lost cause."

Yeah. Germans say kah-rah-teh and kah-rah-oh-keh...but obviously, they pronounce a lot of words incorrectly, too, and while I hold back in public, friends aren't safe from being corrected -- mostly because I'd also like to be corrected when I'm wrong; [info]darcydodo's really good about that. *g*

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[info]thisficklemob
2007-01-28 08:34 pm UTC (link)
language isn't just a lovely abstract system but the code of our communication.

Alas. *g*

Actually, Japanese is a good example for another reason – they adopt many English and other Western words, but often they cannot pronounce them correctly even if they try, because their language doesn't contain those sounds. Coffee becomes koh-hee, for example; McDonald's becomes Mah-ku-doh-nah-lu-do.

On the other hand, most Americans can't say the syllable tsu correctly, as in tsunami – they say it as if the t weren't there.

I think my default assumption is that borrowed foreign words probably have been altered, and if I'm not actually trying to speak that foreign language, I usually don't worry about it too much, with a few exceptions.

I just wish people would learn how to spell them; I've seen "Viola!" and especially "Wallah!" (for Voila!) in fic too many times for all those characters to be mispronouncing it on purpose. :p

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[info]monanotlisa
2007-01-28 09:46 pm UTC (link)
Alas. *g*

You heard that, eh? & ;-) I -- and other writers, I think -- tend to worship language per se...because we can. We're at home in at least one of them, know its valleys and mountains and regions and features...and have little respect for those who never venture out of their village, no matter whether that's their choice or not.

I feel a detour into the realms of different codes within one language or language group, the ability (or inability) to switch from one to another etc. pp. coming up, but I'll refrain from doing so.

On the other hand, most Americans can't say the syllable tsu correctly, as in tsunami – they say it as if the t weren't there.

Pronunciation troubles of Americans puzzle me because I've met some who have no trouble shaping the sounds of my language, for example. Then again, mirror image, I and others here could only master aforementioned "r" after about a year of daily tongue training, whereas most Germans have no trouble rolling the consonant.

I think my default assumption is that borrowed foreign words probably have been altered, and if I'm not actually trying to speak that foreign language, I usually don't worry about it too much, with a few exceptions.

Same for me, but since all the languages I stumble across are those I read (decently enough) and speak (indecently only in the case of Spanish), I do go for the original pronunciation, though usually tempered with an ironic eyebrow, and only if I'm around people who I think can handle it.

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[info]monanotlisa
2007-01-28 10:12 pm UTC (link)
Err, "stumble across most often," that is, meaning Western European languages.

These days, of course, there's more Chinese popping up, though, and of course quite a bit of Russian and Polish; I have no clue about those.

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[info]jack_pride
2007-02-01 05:04 am UTC (link)
The English word femme is pronounced with a short 'e'. If I were speaking French (which I do) then I would pronounce the word in the French manner and use it to mean "woman".

If I'm speaking English and I say, for example, that I have dyke nails and I'm not particularly femme, I'll pronounce it as a short 'e' and expect it to mean exhibiting stereotypical or exaggerated feminine traits. Yes, the origin of the word is French, but the origin of a huge amount of English words is foreign - it's a good way for a language to build up a new vocabulary. There's no requirement that the pronunciation or the meaning stay constant!

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[info]monanotlisa
2007-02-01 05:03 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. You have a point about specialised usage, too -- this is a special, different term, the development of a new word in a new context.

But femme fatale is French in origin and has not shifted its meaning in the slightest bit. So, pronouncing it with an "e" will have a language snob like me annoyed.

(Yes, I'm aware I'm a stuck-up tight-ass with no sense of fun when it comes to this. & ;-)

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[info]jack_pride
2007-02-01 10:05 pm UTC (link)
But femme fatale is French in origin and has not shifted its meaning in the slightest bit.

Okay, that one I'll give you. *g*

And, actually, I'm something of a language snob myself, and it's painful to hear beautiful foreign words painfully butchered by monolingual English speakers. It's just that my BA is in linguistics, so I have to look at things from that perspective, too. :)

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[info]monanotlisa
2007-02-01 10:09 pm UTC (link)
Oh yeah, definitely a valid point, if one that makes me grumpy. & :-)

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